Dating, Relating and Mating:  An Interview with Jake Eagle
By Mike Bundrant

As mental health counselor for 15 years, I’ve been fortunate enough to travel to many locations throughout the US and the world, teaching and learning the tools of the trade.  In my journey I’ve met many competent therapists, but none so gifted as Jake Eagle. Jake seems to have a way to “hit the nail on the head” – and it is my pleasure to share with you part of a recent conversation I had with him about Dating, Relating and Mating.  There will be a Part 2 to this interview in a future issue of Healthy Times.

HT:  Can you give me a synopsis of your model?

Jake Eagle:  Let me give you the high-level overview.  There are really only three parts to this, which I like, because it keeps it simple.  The first part is understanding the name, Dating, Relating and Mating. 

These are words that people are familiar with and if you actually look around you’ll find some books and you’ll find a lot of websites, but they all say “dating, mating and relating”.  And I think that putting the words in the order I put them in is very significant, because I believe that what a lot of people actually do is that they date, they mate – and by mate, what I think most of us mean by that is they get married, they “couple” – and then they try to figure out how to relate.  It’s very, very common. 

I think this is actually a huge mistake and obstacle, because once you’re married – once you’re committed – to then dig in and start relating and to get to know each other at a deep level is actually a very frightening thing because if you find out you’re not compatible, now you’re looking at a potential breakup or divorce.  There may be kids involved.  It is not an easy thing.  My fundamental premise is that the order is really important.  If I turn this into a book, I think the subtitle will be something like “Get the Order Right”.

When I think of the terms “dating, relating, mating” I don’t really have a complex way to describe them.  They are very simple in my mind.  Dating is a very casual stage with extremely low stakes – that’s the key – low stakes.  And it is the time where we “test drive” one another.  The reason why low stakes is important is because if I find out when I show you who I am that you don’t like me or don’t approve, there is really not a lot at stake.  We can part ways. I go on, lick my wounds and then date someone else.

So, I think the dating phase is often overlooked in terms of how important it is.  My main point is that this is the stage where we should actually be – not nice words, but – discarding or rejecting people relatively quickly.  We show who we are.  We don’t hide.  We don’t just try to put our best foot forward (which is, of course, very common), instead we show who we are and if we find out we’re not compatible we say, “Nice to have known you, good-bye”.

If we get through the dating and things are going well, then for me the Relating phase is a time where we explore and we learn to deal with our differences – because we absolutely are going to have difference.  The question is how we are going to deal with our differences.  Do we do so in a mature and respectful way, or not?

HT: Any maybe at this point we’re dating someone exclusively?

Jake Eagle:  Yes, I think by the time we get to Relating for most of us it has become an exclusive relationship. We’ll talk about that more when talk about values.  Exclusivity is a conservative approach, but it is one that I advocate. 

If the relating goes well, eventually we probably marry. I refer to that as the Mating stage.  To me, this is a time where we nurture, cherish and enjoy one another.   And that is how I think of marriage.  It is a time where I nurture my wife, I cherish who she is, and I enjoy my experience with her. 

I believe a marriage should be pretty easy.  There are many people who talk about marriage as “hard work”.  There are many who talk about marriage as a primary opportunity to grow and encounter parts of ourselves that we are not comfortable with.  My sense is that we do that enough in the world.  Being a human being in the world is challenging.  I want my primary relationship to be a nurturing, comfortable place.  I don’t want it be a lot of hard work.  It’s a sanctuary.

HT:  I really like the fact that the order is important.  I understand that your theory is that if you’ve done the deep exploring and getting-to-know-each-other during the Relating stage, then the Marriage stage can be easy.  But isn’t context important here?  Marriage is a very different context with real obligations – legal, financial, social.  When we marry, our family history related to marriage inevitably kicks in – it’s just different than relating to someone that you’re not married to.  Can you really do all of the Relating stage prior to marriage?

Jake Eagle:  I don’t think you can do all of the Relating, because I think you spend your life learning to relate in new and better ways.  But I think if you get 60-70% - if you get the “big pieces” done…if you can work through the fundamental issues that actually do arise before marriage – in my marriage those issues were conscious and acknowledged and we certainly engaged each other around those issues before we married.

HT:  So, there were no surprises for you?

Jake Eagle:  I have been surprised that I continue to find parts of myself that are immature. At the age of 50 I will find a part of me that is still wanting a certain kind of relationship with my mother – or the archetype “mother” – and I play that out with my wife.  The difference at 50, after being together for 15 years, is that it is not scary.  I don’t find it difficult to talk about what I discover.

So, yes, I think the context changes, but if you’ve laid the foundation during the Relating stage, then I don’t think what comes up in the marriage is scary or unmanageable.

HT:  What are some common mistakes people make in relation to Dating, Relating and Mating?

Jake Eagle:  I think there are some flawed strategies that people sometimes use….no good or bad here…but there is one strategy where people date forever.  From my point of view, this is a superficial way of being in the world.  It often referred to with men as the “Peter Pan Syndrome”- guys who don’t want to grow up.  There is nothing wrong with it – the key thing is to be honest that this is who you are and what you want to do. If you’re a guy and you don’t want to grow up, but you want to date women or multiple women…I think as long as you’re honest with the people you date, it’s ok because other people know what they’re dealing with.

The problem is when they represent themselves as wanting to relate deeply…maybe even mate or marry….yet they are truly only interested – or even capable – of dating.

HT:  Yeah, you represent that you want more because it gets you more dates, basically.

Jake Eagle:  Right.  And to me that is disrespectful. If you find someone to date and you both only want to date – or date a lot of people, then that works.

In terms of the Relating stage, I think there are two flawed strategies.  One is that people move there too quickly from the Dating Phase.  Moving to Relating too quickly is going “too deep, too quickly” and potentially with the wrong person.  So, you’ve gone out on one date, and start revealing very, very intimate things about yourself – it’s almost like a “therapeutic” date – where you’re talking about your childhood and various abuses and neglects and your dreams and how you want to be healed….To me this happens for two reasons. One is that you want to get a message from the other that you’re OK.  That is very unrealistic.  I can’t get that message from a woman on the first date!

I think there is another reason for it that most people don’t see.  And that is actually that they want to get a message that they are NOT OK.  And that they will, in fact, reinforce some idea about them that they are flawed.  When a person is overly-disclosing in an inappropriate context, such as on a first or second date….

HT:  Or, having never actually met the person, like with an internet relationship…

Jake Eagle:  Yes.  It can be rather alarming because there is desperation behind that kind of behavior.  Some people aren’t scared by it –they are rather engaged – but that raises other questions like, “Why aren’t they concerned?”  I think that generally this would be a “yellow flag” not a red flag, but certainly yellow.  It might be very helpful to adopt an attitude along the lines of, “Relax, we have plenty of time to do this”. 

People who go into the relating phase too quickly are desperate to be accepted and validated or to “belong”.  If a person has a great need to belong because of a deep loneliness, often what they need to do is go find a place to belong where they can fit in. I believe that is what a lot of group experiences are about.

If this desperation to relate is not about belonging…if it is about being validated and accepted…but there is this desperation behind it…then I think it is wise to take a half-step back and start working on self-acceptance before asking someone else to accept you.

HT:  Let’s say that someone moves to Relating too quickly and genuinely believes they have found acceptance even after desperately disclosing too much too soon….and then they move right on to marriage…. Well, that sounds like a disaster in the making.

Jake Eagle:  This has all sorts of dangerous problems down the road, because this fosters dependency.  I have this urgency, this desperation…and you satisfy me…and I actually feel OK.  I feel seen and approved of. So now I think everything is OK and I proceed in my life.  But, I’ve given you an enormous amount of power to determine if I am OK or not OK.  If you have a bad day or things don’t go well for you and you’re not able to give me what I want, then I become very anxious and probably very angry because you’re not giving me what you’ve always given me.  And YOU were the source of my feeling OK about myself.  I never quite got to the place where I felt OK about myself.

HT:  And nobody can do that for you over the long haul…it just can’t last that way.

Jake Eagle:  Not over the long haul.  We all do need some validation and belonging.  We need small doses along the way – and it is great to know that others think well of us.  But if we expect too much of that or rely on others for approval then I think we’re very vulnerable.

HT:  The solution is to just date longer, right?

Jake Eagle:  Date longer, be casual.  Let things develop slowly, be patient.  I know that many people are eager for acceptance, but meaningful acceptance isn’t something that typically happens quickly.  It takes time to truly get to know another person.  When I first met Hannah I used to need to tell her everything that happened to me every day.  I just needed to let her know what was going on for me and know that she was OK with it. And now, 15 years later, things may happen to me during the day that I may not tell her about for a week, a month, or at all. Not to exclude her, but I don’t need that kind of attention anymore….there is a more global, deeper sense of acceptance that I experience.  So, I don’t need the day to day or moment to moment acknowledgement.  Things are just more relaxed.  If I were to start a new relationship today I wouldn’t push so hard to get my partner’s acceptance.  I’d allow that quality to develop naturally, over time. 

The other flawed strategy in the Relating Phase is that people stay in Relating too long, never resolve their issues and move on to marriage.  Typically this comes from a fear of commitment and the implications of commitment.

There is also a flawed strategy in relation to the Mating Phase, which is mating too quickly.  I know someone who is doing this right now.  You start dating.  After one date you start relating.  After relating for two weeks you decide to get married.  To me this is people not wanting to find out that there are problems.  This is a very repressive strategy that says, “Let’s just do it!”  Let’s get married and love each other without having gone through that Relating Phase where we find out about each flaws and insecurities…

HT:  And values, dreams….you have no idea….you just force it!

Jake Eagle.:  You don’t even know who you’ve married.  And now what you’ve created is an enormously anxiety-producing relationship.  Now you’re married.  She doesn’t know certain things about you…. you don’t want her to know…it’s just a very stressful way to be in the world…to marry someone you didn’t really take the time to get to know.  High stakes….lots to lose.  And embarrassment is a big component of it.

HT:  Right…because typically in those situations the people that know you well….your close friends and family….were warning you not to move too quickly…and you’re not about to be proven wrong…ever!  I imagine this couldn’t be a very intimate relationship either…because now getting to know your spouse means that you risk discovering something you don’t like…so you are inclined to avoid her.  How sad is that?

Jake Eagle:  Potentially very sad.  Ok, so that is the first part of it.  The main point is to give each phase – the dating, relating, and mating – the proper amount of time and attention.  If you haven’t done well at this in the past, stop and notice what your pattern is.  Understanding your pattern of relating in the past may help you conduct yourself in different ways in the future.  And there are four very specific things you can explore the next time you start a relationship.  We’ll talk about those next time.